An honest and sincere question: Is hospitality really hospitality, when something expected in exchange?

I want to share this discussion that took place on Reddit:

And specifically this my point, which is incredibly important for the future of Couchers in my view:

«I guess it all comes down to the absense of clear description of values of exchange. It shouldn’t be left to cultural differences and chance, it should be described clearly "this is how we do it", the type of exchange that the platform represents should be clearly formulated - then there’ll be no need for misunderstanding, when expectations are clearly stated by the platform itself.

Or if there are multiple types of expectations, there should be compulsory profile sections to fill, in which you choose among them, and thus people can find their “matches” so to speak.

The absense of clarity of the philosophy of the platform, the ambiguity - is what makes multiple interpretations possible, and thus leads to conflicts and clashes in views, expectations, etc. So there should be very unambigous philosophy described, something like a manifesto of sorts, clearly point by point describing every aspect of interaction between users of the platform.»

I would say yes.
It is still hospitality even when something expected in exchange.
If there is no exchange at all then you are hosting… freeloaders.

I do understand that majority of people are using hospitality exchange platforms to save money in the first place so I would never insisted on some specific exchange that needs to be done that involves money like buying gifts or paying for the other person. But there are numerous ways how to give back to your host that don’t cost any money- do the dishes, help clean the place before you leave, teach your host some new skill, give them some kind of a fun experience, share something with them. They are your hosts after all- saving you money on accommodation. Sometimes on restaurants, too. They pay for your water/gas/electric usage. They clean after you. They sometimes give you rides. But most importantly they give you their free time and make sure you have a good time. It’s rude to just take take take and never give anything back in return. Not everybody understands how much effort goes into hosting so I am fine if hosts specify if there is something what you can do for them.

If host expects you to share your favorite recipe with them or wants you to teach them language, how to play the guitar, how to code, ask you to bring a postcard from your city or two beers on your way I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. That’s probably the least you can do and I would still consider this to be hospitality.

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In my view, there’s two central ideas guiding exchange on Couchers:

  • It’s a free and non-profit platform. Exchange of money is not a part of using the service.
  • It’s not a dating app.

I think these are the points that should indeed be communicated very clearly and without leaving room for ambiguity. Transgressions in these directions should also be sanctioned, because these limits are important to build and maintain an open and safe platform. But beyond that, I wouldn’t see the need to define what users are supposed to expect or what hospitality really is.

If there’s different expectations because of cultural differences, I feel that realizing and navigating these differences is really part of getting to know the world. At least me, I wouldn’t want to travel to find that people have similar views and expectations wherever I stay.

On the other hand, when users have specific personal expectations, they have their profiles to communicate those. If you’d feel more comfortable with a manifesto @azat11, why not put it up on your profile or home section?

Where I think it could be helpful to have more general guidance or limitations could be for new users. Like an opt-in new-user-mode? That will only show users with a certain standing. And probably don’t offer features like public trip posting? Have some nudges or tips about what kind of behavior we believe is most likely to lead to great experiences?

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I think hospitality is not expecting something in return. I think the purpose of helping other people and giving kindness is to put that into the world, in the hope it will spread further when this person who now feels gratitude and connectedness will be inspired to pass on this kindness to someone else. And then you have a culture of people helping other people without expectations of return :slight_smile: other than the hope that you have made the world a bit better and less individualistic than much of the world has become today :)))))))

  • in which case you will get return but not definitely and maybe not directly :stuck_out_tongue:
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Have you read the discussion on Reddit?

I feel the opposite - clear description of what the exchange is is absolutely necessary, and on the platform level. Like “Hospitality for company, communion and cultural exchange”. It should be stated what the exchange is, not what it’s not. Everyone having their own idea of exchange creates confusion. Or as I stated there should be a list of types of exchange and each user should choose what they are interested in, and this will make matching people with similar expectations easy. Expectations should be made transparent, because they are present in 95% or more cases. Transparency should be imperative, it should be the ultimate value, and not the societal politeness and hypocrisy that there are no expectations, when in fact there are expectations inabsolute majority cases. Although I understand that this is unlikely to happen.

That is why I am inclined to create my own closed community for the hospitality sharing, where there are truly no expectations.

This is very close to what I am feeling, but really I don’t care if it will spread – sharing in itself is enough, just the joy of giving is enough. Kindness is it’s own reward, and those who have not experienced this will always be expecting something, and nothing from without truly satisfies, only from within that we are fulfilled.

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Least I can do is nothing. By definition. It is a stupid expression.

Just as I mentioned in the reply above – those who have not felt the fulfillment that giving brings will always expect, because they have not known the true joy of love, which is giving without leaving anything for yourself.

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Beautiful thing about hospitality exchange is the fact that there are a lot of people with different characters, values and opinions. Surfers who believe in the law of reciprocity will have no issues to stay with hosts that would like to get something in exchange for hosting. Surfers who the least they can do is nothing will have no issues with staying with altruistic hosts. Just choose your companion carefully and everybody will have a good time. That’s the goal.

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If a guest wants to know what to expect about my hospitality, among other things: read my profile.
It was always like this and it will stay that way.

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Agree with you Pelgrim.
This is what the individual profiles/reading them are all about.
How can we expect the site/app to define exactly for everyone given all our diverse multicultural differences?
There will never be a clear enough description that will be inclusive for a global community.
For me simple is better.
Life is already way too complex.
We are being bombarded and super stimulated as it is. Trying to find a system that includes multiculturalism across borders, religions, beliefs, gender, age, backgrounds, spiritualities, professions and the wide range of the complexity of a human being, never mind the arriving star beings for the Big showdown is bound to be a generalist approach that will end up excluding many.
In the spirit of community and heart based cooperation.
Peace, love, light and blessings.

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I do not open a new thread but I make two questions that are someway related: There are people that arrives as a normal guest, that plans to stay a few days, arranged with the host and then move to another place.
Sometimes happens that for some reason the next place become unavailable and the guest ask to stay much longer than arranged.
Three different people told me about a problem: in many places certain expenses for the house [mostly water and cleaning] are paid based on the number of people living in the apartment and the number is the number of people that stay there more than N days (N that can be even as little as 2), so if the guest overstay you have to pay some extra on the order of 2-10 EUR per period (week or month), even if the overstay is just one day over N.
Servas used to limit stay to 2 days to avoid such problems and others.
If the guest is really nice you can absorb the extra expense, if the guest if bad you do not allow overstay, but there is a range in the middle where you have no reason to kick it out other not to pay double a whole month for water and cleaning.
So it is still in the spirit of hospitality to ask everyone that overstay to pay that money? (I do not talk about “please help me do some house chores, if you stay more time” but of real money) and how to justify to ask to someone that asked first to stay 3 days and then 5 days more “give me 5€” and when leaving after 3+1 because next place returned available offer only 1€, having to tell “it’s 5 in any case, because 4 to 10 days count always as a week”
How to avoid that the guest consider this as a rent and not the extra cost of its overstay ?

when i started hosting people i had no expectations, minimal requirements for a good request and spent alot of time cleaning my place and being prepared, as time went on i started having some expectations but not as requirements, ie. a gift or some gesture, i prefer requests that state reasons for wanting to stay at my place and i do minimal preperation, but i don’t have time limits for people i like and i have a good time with most people, i don’t mind people using my electricity or toilet paper or whatever, as long as they don’t break anything (which has happened) and treat my apartment with respect it’s all good
currently i have relaxed my expectations even more cuz of the pandemic and i get fewer requests, still waiting to host somebody from couchers : }

As written in the handbook: Help | Couchers.org “No. Keep things non-transactional. Don’t exchange money, goods, work, donations, or services while staying, hosting, or meeting up.”

Since asking for donations is not allowed/recommended:

A) Be honest : "Sorry, I could and would love to host you, but having guests for longer than 3 days affects my utility bill and I am not allowed to ask for money on Couchers”. This way you might get a tiny contribution “under the counter” without actually asking for it. In my opinion it feels a bit weird.
B) Drop that completely and be firm about not extending the stays: “Sorry, I can’t host you for 8 days, we only agreed on 3”. Let’s normalize saying no without the need to explain or feel guilty. In the end it’s the guest who failed to find their next accommodation. Host should not be put into the position of collecting coins to cover their utility bills because somebody else is overstaying their welcome.

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@Climbatiz : the case[s] i told was not on utilities that you pay by use, but some other ones, rendered to the whole building that usually are shared in good part according the number of people in each apartment. It is not my case since where i live these are billed by the quarter and a person is considered in the count only if stays here for at least 123 days in one year, but in some places these expenses are billed by the week and the count is made weekly so a person that stay 4 days would impact as staying a whole week.
And I was not talking about someone that you really want to have in your home, but someone that asked to remain since someone else has dropped them.
The case that someone told me: «where I live we pay 18€ a week per person for water, heating and cleaning, if someone has guests for more than 3 days pays for additional people, it is fair, i told with the guest and said, oh, no problem, will give you even 3€ per day to cover costs if i can stay until i manage to go to my next place. Then after two days, that triggered the extra occupant, told that the person that had to host him reappeared and was moving there, gave me 5€ and ran away, so hosting him costed me 12€ unexpectedly».
SO yes, it the other person that failed to get next accommodation but not always it is their fault (once i had people that overstayed three days since the flight to next destination had been canceled and going there for just 1½ days did not worth the time, recently two girls for whom i did not feel safe to let them go to the next guest since they had asked me where they could buy a specific item that he had asked as a condition to go there). In these case you may be between not leaving them in an inconvenient situation or having to pay extra money for someone that after all has already stayed enough.

of course … it is 183 days, not 123 …

I always feel that only the initial hosting agreement is related to Couchers as a hospitality exchange platform. At least that’s how I understand why we have some set rules, because the platform is facilitating private encounters between strangers. You can’t make an advance judgement how that other person really is, but you should be safe to expect that they act within a common minimal understanding.

But when people know each other and make new plans, that seems to be beyond what Couchers’ set of rules is meant to guarantee? So I’d feel that’s not ‘on Couchers’ anymore and rather just up to them to agree on whatever they find appropriate.

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Yeah, I don’t see why not just say “hey man, if you stay longer, I’ll be charged …, so I guess it’s fair if you pay that”.

Gotcha! But in the end it’s still the same, isn’t it? Whether it’s utility contribution or some occupancy related fee, it doesn’t matter. You either have to say “no” or explain your specific situation, e.g.: “My building/landlord charges €18/week flat rate for anyone who would stay longer than 3 days. You can stay longer but I can’t pay that fee for you, sorry”. The surfer will either pay that (Couchers handbook approved or not) or go elsewhere.

The payment like that is absolutely reasonable, if you ask me. The only reason why I would say “I can’t host you longer” rather than give somebody option to pay for additional days is simply for the fact that you never know which airheaded person will turn this against you. Reference: “Michaela was amazing host but at the end of my stay she asked me to pay €18 which made me really uncomfortable so I decided to leave her place”. Not worth it to me.

I would suggest anyone in the similar situation to clarify this on their profile to make guests aware in advance, e.g.: my landlord will ask for additional charges if you decide to stay longer than 3 days.

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so I would see useful in the profile a field: ‘maximum stay’, that is different than preferred stay. It means that beyond that interval of time couchers rules do no longer apply, so it would avoid to have either embarassing situations or to have to put an explicit note in the profile, that could make the person appearing aggressive or unwilling, while other people could just skip and in case say “but it is normal if you stay for a long time”

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Honestly, I would rather reduce the number of those fields than add new ones. I don’t think the situation is that widespread, is it? So the field will be used by just a few people, and clog up home description for most users. Could work if we have n/a option that would mean that the field is just not displayed, as was discussed at some point: Hosting and Home preferences

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